I've had it up to here with religion!

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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby YAFF » Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:07 am

fairydandy wrote:
YAFF wrote:Now that we all agree there is a beginning I will continue after the mods move the posts


No one ever disagreed that there was a beginning! All of this talk and we still don't know where fucking god is? How long is this going to take? Let's get straight to the punchline shall we? Where is god? Surely we can wrap this up in the next 10 mins? Tell me where he is, please.


There was push back about a beginning. Either you forgot or wasn't there. action started a thread concerning multiverses et all. God is easy to find fd. You just gotta know where to look. I am not convinced you deserve to find him yet :lol:
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby YAFF » Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:10 am

action wrote:the anus of proof, clearly lies with Yaff



well you're the expert on the anus seeing that you spend hours daily licking them. Isn't your nickname really "rimjob action"?
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby Elessar » Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:19 am

YAFF wrote:
Elessar wrote:Well I can't deny that your 'proof' compels acceptance by your mind (definition 1a), but I hardly think that's a good standard to aspire to.
1b is presumably the definition you're aiming for - you address this later and so shall I.
5: I doubt any tribunal would rule that there is definitely a god.


The tribunal example works because as I said "god can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt", which naturally in our minds infers a trial by jury. From the beginning I have been consistent on this. We humans make decisions on the kinds of proof I have offered ALL THE TIME. A preponderance of the evidence. Circumstantial evidence. I took some accepted scientific facts and used logic and reasoning to present my case (actually only the beginning of it but folks like fd tend to disrail the conversation with trivialities)

You also made some assumptions, as discussed below.

YAFF wrote:
Elessar wrote:I believe that others know far more about those subjects than I do, and that I'm not really qualified to have much of an opinion. I think it's likely that inorganic material produced organic material and that eventually lead to what we now call life, yes. We have demonstrable mechanisms by which big atoms can come from little atoms, and molecules can come from atoms, so it would be surprising if all of a sudden a new explanation were required for some even bigger molecules to have come from smaller molecules. Chemistry and physics managed the rest by itself so it seems unlikely that a god was required to create biology.


Big atoms coming from little atoms is a poor analogy. It isn't apt. The real issue is genetic information and the genetic code. You think it's "likely that inorganic material produced material..". Atoms becoming larger has low information count like crystals while the simplest living organism has dense information. How does one go from zero to low information content to highly SPECIFIED content? You seem to be quite ignorant to the incredibly improbable odds of this occurring, odds often provided by materialists/atheists. Despite failure after failure of producing anything other than some amino acids and the complete lack of evidence for a primordial soup you still call it "likely". What can you say about a person that bets on ridiculously poor odds? We have a word for such a person. I suspect you aren't as well-read on abiogenesis as I assumed.


It's not an analogy, it's a fact.
I know that it is improbable that a piece of inorganic material would turn into organic material. However, given a large enough primordial soup and sufficient time, the odds increase. The odds of you being born are astromically small (correct sperm and correct egg multiplied by every generation since the start of life = billions to one against) but it happened, and we all have to live with that reality.

YAFF wrote:
Elessar wrote:I don't think any of those three caveats are DEFINITELY true. Even if they're very likely, say 90%, the chances of all three being true is only 73%, and it's then a pretty big leap to rename your Unchained Melody as 'God'.


90%? 73% Really? Show your work. Otherwise those remarks are about as useful has male tits.


I said "say 90%", so that number was made up. We can change it to 95% of it makes you feel better.
0.9 x 0.9 x 0.9 = 0.73.
I know maths is hard, but I mastered that kind of arithmetic when I was about 6.

YAFF wrote:
Elessar wrote:Well, I'd quite like there to be a god, so for me, to conclude that there probably isn't one means rejections my own preferences. Given that elsewhere you talk about Jesus and the Bible, I doubt the same is true of you.


Unlike you I am able to engage in topics purely on their own merits whether I personally believe in them or not. You don't know what I believe about Jesus and the Bible. I certainly know more than you do on these things but your smuggling this into this conversation is just you committing the same logical fallacies over and over again.


Which logical fallacies would those be?
I try not to 'believe' anything. My 'beliefs' (I prefer to call them conclusions) are in constant flux, changing with the flow of information and evidence. I would quite like there to be a god, although he'd have a lot to answer for, but I ignore that when pondering whether or not he exists. I'd also like to win the lottery, but I think it's so unlikely that I don't even bothered buying a ticket. Maybe if I wanted it enough, I'd sacrifice £2 a week.

YAFF wrote:
Elessar wrote:I've only read one book by the widely acclaimed Oxbridge professor Richard Dawkins, and it certainly wasn't The God Delusion. I think it's improbable becauae there is no evidence, and it is a supernatural belief, up there with unicorns on Mars. Yes, there might be, and I certainly can't disprove them, but in the absence of any actual evidence (Righteous Brothers aside), I'll assume there probably aren't any.


There is, in fact, evidence no matter how many times you and fd wave your hands that there isn't. There's a wealth of evidence that shows an unconditioned reality is probable. Your reference to unicorns shows you committing yet another logical fallacy or three: 1. reductio ad absurdum 2. weak analogy and the rhetorical fallacy "appeal to ridicule"


Why are unicorns on Mars absurd?
We know that horses exist on earth and there is increasing evidence that Mars may have once been hospitable to life. Convergent evolution shows that similar organisms evolve independently, and the evolutionary advantage of a single central horn isn't hard to imagine. A unicorn is, biologically speaking, a perfectly reasonable animal to exist. There is far more evidence that a unicorn could exist than that God does.
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby Elessar » Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:20 am

Innuendoes wrote:You go watch the LiveLeak video and see if you think that's ok!


I didn't say it's okay, I said that Facebook don't have a legal obligation to remove it.
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby Innuendoes » Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:30 am

Elessar wrote:
Innuendoes wrote:You go watch the LiveLeak video and see if you think that's ok!


I didn't say it's okay, I said that Facebook don't have a legal obligation to remove it.


youtube were the ones that pulled it down. It was on FB but youtube pulled it. Then LiveLeak got ahold of it and they have it. That's the link I posted for the video, itself.

Facebook pulled the anon video and info on the owners of the page. The page can remain, so far, as long as no one really knows who they are. They got an earful and are still getting it from what I can see.
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby WeeMann » Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:47 am

YAFF wrote:
Innuendoes wrote:Why do you all persist in posting about God or the lack of in this thread instead of the I Hate Religion thread or one of the many other anti - religion threads in this section and leave this thread for animal rights?


Because we just need the mods to move it on over. I agree with you.


Sorry, been waiting for God to split the thread but he seems unresponsive at the moment.

Once my PC stops pissing around I'll get on to it. If you need a job doing...
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby Elessar » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:38 am

I don't think it should be split, incidentally. It was a tangent, but there's a clear thread leading back to the original topic. It's almost as if that's where the word 'thread' comes from. Instead we'll be left with a thread that launches straight into the tangent, with no clear beginning. No unconditioned reality. Maybe given enough time, this thread was inevitable. As someone once said, time goes by so slowly, and time can do so much. Are you still mine?
 
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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby WeeMann » Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:10 am

I know there are posts in here that belong in the vegan thread but that'll have to wait until later.
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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby fairydandy » Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:23 pm

Fuck me, I went to the other thread, it's all about vulcans or some such shit. :roll: Where the hell is the proof of god...come on, getting bored now.

I asked you before YAFF, what do you think of when you think of god? What form does he take? Are these difficult questions for you or something, because you claim you have proof of his existence?
 
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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby Elessar » Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:43 am

The thing is, a discussion about whether or not there is a god is now in what we would probably describe as a 'religion bashing' thread. Discussing theology is not 'religion-bashing'. I'm happy to do that of course, by talking about child abuse and AIDS and terrorism and war, but that's not what we were doing in the vegetarianism thread.
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby YAFF » Mon Nov 09, 2015 1:31 am

Elessar wrote:
I know that it is improbable that a piece of inorganic material would turn into organic material. However, given a large enough primordial soup and sufficient time, the odds increase. The odds of you being born are astromically small (correct sperm and correct egg multiplied by every generation since the start of life = billions to one against) but it happened, and we all have to live with that reality.


There is no evidence of a primordial soup and time is limited. Life appeared too early in the fossil record. Not enough time. That's why the odds are vanishingly small. The odds of being born is quite different from abiogenesis. The outcome is certain that some egg and some sperm will meet. Somebody will eventually win the lottery. There is no good reason to believe inorganic material would turn into organic material. Your example doesn't work. It's unscientific.
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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby Tarkus » Mon Nov 09, 2015 2:07 am

This is basically a re-run of the same argument that occurred on page 16 of this very thread. And no-one's opinion from either side has changed significantly in any way, nor will it be likely to.

Peace out. 8-)
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby Elessar » Mon Nov 09, 2015 2:15 am

YAFF wrote:
Elessar wrote:
I know that it is improbable that a piece of inorganic material would turn into organic material. However, given a large enough primordial soup and sufficient time, the odds increase. The odds of you being born are astromically small (correct sperm and correct egg multiplied by every generation since the start of life = billions to one against) but it happened, and we all have to live with that reality.


There is no evidence of a primordial soup and time is limited. Life appeared too early in the fossil record. Not enough time. That's why the odds are vanishingly small. The odds of being born is quite different from abiogenesis. The outcome is certain that some egg and some sperm will meet. Somebody will eventually win the lottery. There is no good reason to believe inorganic material would turn into organic material. Your example doesn't work. It's unscientific.


Off the top of my head I think there's around 1.5 billion years to play around with. That's quite a long time.

It's only certain (well, not certain, but likely) that a sperm and an egg will meet on any one given occasion. I'm saying that the correct sperm and correct egg had to meet every single time for thousands of generations. The odds of that are absolutely tiny. The only reason it's even worth entertaining the possibility that it happened that way, as opposed to you being delivered straight from God via a stork, is because we have sufficient evidence for the final 1% or so of the process to extrapolate that it probably happened that way right back to the beginning.

And that's pretty much what we're doing with abiogenesis. People seem happy (for the most part) with the idea of organic material creating more organic material through various mechanisms; and are happy with the idea of inorganic material making more inorganic material; but encounter some sort of brain freeze at the prospect of inorganic material creating organic material as if there's some sort of magic difference other than the 'in-' scientists have put at the start of the word 'organic' to differentiate the two overlapping kinds of chemistry.

In fact we know inorganic material can turn into organic material because we do it all the time. For a while in previous centuries it was banned as it was considered to be blasphemy. The actual issue is whether large amino acids can come from smaller chunks of organic material. The answer is that of course they can; the question is whether or not that can happen spontaneously and without any kind of guidance. I agree that it has never been simulated in vitro. But we couldn't artificially create diamonds until pretty recently, and the chemistry behind that is very simple. Of course you can get amino acids from smaller chunks of matter. Yes, on any given occasion it's improbable, but it must have happened because here we are...unless you reject that argument and have one of your own. Like magic. And you think magic is more probable. Which to me, seems odd.
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby julymorning » Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:48 pm

fairydandy wrote:
YAFF wrote:Now that we all agree there is a beginning I will continue after the mods move the posts


No one ever disagreed that there was a beginning! All of this talk and we still don't know where fucking god is? How long is this going to take? Let's get straight to the punchline shall we? Where is god? Surely we can wrap this up in the next 10 mins? Tell me where he is, please.


You'll have to be more specific. There are more than thousands, you know. Are you asking about Greek god's? Roman?
Egyptian? Even Christendom has more than one.

God is just a title. They all have names to differentiate themselves from each other.
Take the time to decide which one you are asking about, and use a name, please. :lol:
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This is probably as good as it gets.

      
 
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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby The__KingOfRhye » Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:13 am

That's why I liked the idea of 'ignosticism' I read about a while ago. It's basically the idea that 'does God exist' is a meaningless question, since there's so many different ideas of what 'God' is in the first place...
 
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Would it save you a lot of time if I just gave up and went mad now?

      
 
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