I've had it up to here with religion!

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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby Belle Leisha » Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:31 am

Uh huh, every atheist I know would disagree with that and one other thing, there are not just religious people and atheists in the world!
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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby Dusty » Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:45 am

I'll add to this thread by qualifying and elaborating on what I was driving at in the other threads doing the rounds recently.

I have no problem with religious books, as there are many passages in a lot of them that are beautifully written, with wonderful sentiments. There's also a lot of nasty, hell-fire and brimstone stuff too, but the underlying message in each one is generally good- to just chill out, don't be a dick, and love everyone.

I have no problem with many religious people- those who get what their respective religions' books and messages mean- the kind of people who are generally nice to everyone, and good, kind people. They 'get it', and the world could do with a few more of them, IMVHO.

What I *do* have a problem with, is the organisations behind most religions- the churches as opposed to the congregations. They are generally corrupt, and when they teach the tenets of their faith to their followers, they invariably put a spin on what was written, so that what the people hear is what they think, and not what the religion's prophet or God thinks. These are the places that concentrate on the nasty hell-fire and brimstone stuff, and use it as a tool to bash people they don't like, when it's been made perfectly clear in later passages of the book- usually especially by the prophet or God that the religion is about- that the 'loving everyone' bit should have no exceptions. I'm sure that if any of these Gods or prophets should pay a visit to the temples and religions started in their name, they'd definitely want to have a few words with the bozoes in charge.

If anything, to use Christianity as an example, I have no problem with a lot of Christians, but I do have a helluva problem with the Church. From now, to avoid unneccessary offence to any Christians here, I'll refer to the bit I have problems with as Churchianity.
 
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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby bigV » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:32 am

Belle Leisha wrote:I mean if you had the power now to fix one ill in the world, would that be it?


Cure cancer!

V.

EDIT: I've changed my mind. If I had the power to change just one thing I'd want world peace. So much money is spent on warfare these days that if all that money was directed at cancer research we'd have a cure for cancer in under 10 years!
 
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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby bigV » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:51 am

Greywoolfe wrote:I have no problem with many religious people- those who get what their respective religions' books and messages mean- the kind of people who are generally nice to everyone, and good, kind people. They 'get it', and the world could do with a few more of them, IMVHO.


Town crazies. Every town has at least one. There's this woman in my hometown - I think she lives on the street, she's always dressed in black, with a long black skirt and a black scarf on her head - even in the hottest summer. She walks everywhere and she always has a backpack - yes, you guessed it, it's also black.

I once saw her in front of my apartment building. She had gathered a group of children around her - 6-7 kids about8-12 years old. I accidentally overheard what she was talking about. It seems she was preaching to them about God and how he was everywhere, and they have to be righteous or he would send them to Hell where they would burn in agonizing pain for all eternity... There's something very wrong with this picture.

I don't mind religious people. I have nothing against Christians who go to Church every Sunday or Muslims who pray five (?) times a day, or Jews who only eat kosher food and observe the Sabbath strictly. What I can't stand is the fanatics. I can't stand people who refuse to accept that there is more than one idea.

V.
 
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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby fairydandy » Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:50 pm

ptracer wrote:Religion is one of those things we're just going to have to let die out. Christianity in the Western world will most likely dissolve within the next 200 years at most, Islam will probably take closer to...4000.

I think Britain will be one of the first countries to denounce religion as a population, ignoring the immigrant population that is.



Yes, we're doing ok, but Sweden has far more atheists.

I still object to atheists being given a label of any sort though. We don't label other groups of people who don't believe in something....only those that believe. It's almost as if the default setting for humans is set to religion, when it isn't and shouldn't be. It's just not normal human behaviour, it's taught behaviour.
 
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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby fairydandy » Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:58 pm

Belle Leisha wrote:
There are so many more important issues that what is on money or in anthems, some relating to religion, some not. Take the British anthem, for example, is the worrying part the word 'God' or the fact it's about saving our non-specific monarchy, when we have a democratically elected Government? For me it's the latter, and again, still very far down the list of worrying things in the world, I mean if you had the power now to fix one ill in the world, would that be it?


I would make the teaching of religion illegal until the child reaches 16. Seriously, anyone who then believes would just be seen as a nutter, rather than us having to feign 'respect' for their idiotic and totally non-sensical beliefs.

I don't personally agree that there are more important issues than religion, but if you think there is, you could always make a topic to discuss them.
 
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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby Belle Leisha » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:53 pm

This is where I think reason gets left behind in favour of personal dislike or prejudice. There are very few problems in the world which if there was no such thing as religion, would go away. Personally I'd rate global pverty somewhat above religion as an issue, but there's not a lot of point in discussing it, as the way to get a long winded discussion is to make sure people have something to disagree on. Presumably no one would say actually I think poverty is a good thing.
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Or else your hearts must have the courage, of the changing of the guard


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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby fairydandy » Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:14 pm

Belle Leisha wrote:This is where I think reason gets left behind in favour of personal dislike or prejudice. There are very few problems in the world which if there was no such thing as religion, would go away. Personally I'd rate global pverty somewhat above religion as an issue, but there's not a lot of point in discussing it, as the way to get a long winded discussion is to make sure people have something to disagree on. Presumably no one would say actually I think poverty is a good thing.


This topic is about religion Belle. If you don't want to discuss it, don't. It's not a difficult equation.

Reason? Come off it, people repeatedly ask the 'believers' for some sort of proof of what they believe, or even an acnowledgement that there might not be a God...and all we get is, 'I believe'. Is that your idea of reason?

It wouldn't matter if we didn't base our laws and our values on this medieval nonsense, but we do. I once went to court as a teenager for a driving offence and they made me swear on the Bible that I was going to tell the truth. Insulted doesn't even begin to explain how I felt that day. How the fuck dare they assume that because I am going to hold a book about a fictitious character that I would tell the truth...I would do that anyway!!

I loathe religion, I hate it passionately and I hate what it is doing to our planet...but prejudice, I don't think so, that's for your lot Belle.
 
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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby Belle Leisha » Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:36 pm

fairydandy wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote:This is where I think reason gets left behind in favour of personal dislike or prejudice. There are very few problems in the world which if there was no such thing as religion, would go away. Personally I'd rate global pverty somewhat above religion as an issue, but there's not a lot of point in discussing it, as the way to get a long winded discussion is to make sure people have something to disagree on. Presumably no one would say actually I think poverty is a good thing.


This topic is about religion Belle. If you don't want to discuss it, don't. It's not a difficult equation.

Reason? Come off it, people repeatedly ask the 'believers' for some sort of proof of what they believe, or even an acnowledgement that there might not be a God...and all we get is, 'I believe'. Is that your idea of reason?

It wouldn't matter if we didn't base our laws and our values on this medieval nonsense, but we do. I once went to court as a teenager for a driving offence and they made me swear on the Bible that I was going to tell the truth. Insulted doesn't even begin to explain how I felt that day. How the fuck dare they assume that because I am going to hold a book about a fictitious character that I would tell the truth...I would do that anyway!!

I loathe religion, I hate it passionately and I hate what it is doing to our planet...but prejudice, I don't think so, that's for your lot Belle.


Cheers yeah, I know that.

You're kind of an exception to most anti-religious people, in that you seem to actually object to people having beliefs, rather than to harm caused by organized religion. If you could prove something it's not a belief, so asking someone to prove their beliefs is pretty pointless. No, that's not my idea of reason, I think I did say that reason is pushed aside in favour of personal dislike and prejudice on both sides twice, in an earlier post. It's not reasonably to claim to know anything about God, but it's also not reasonable to object to other people's belief if they're not causing anyone else any harm.

I'm pretty sure you don't have to swear on the Bible. It's the default of our courts as this is a Christian country, lots of things about the courts are outdated, they still wear daft Charles II wigs.

Heh, I don't think I could reasonably call myself religious, fd. "My lot" as you call them, cover billions of people some who have prejudices because of religion, some who don't, so yes it is pretty much the definition of prejudice to even call them that. However, by "prejudice" I didn't mean as in bigotry or unreasonable offence towards, again as I did refer to both sides I meant it as in your pre-decided position in this debate, that applies to all. Passionate hatred and reason don't really go hand in hand, that's the problem.
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Or else your hearts must have the courage, of the changing of the guard


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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby LittleBabyNothing » Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:40 pm

Is this the thread for a civilised debate on religion, then?!

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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby Dusty » Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:53 pm

LittleBabyNothing wrote:Is this the thread for a civilised debate on religion, then?!

:whistle:


What- here, civilised, on this subject? :P
 
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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby Dusty » Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:59 pm

Belle Leisha wrote:This is where I think reason gets left behind in favour of personal dislike or prejudice. There are very few problems in the world which if there was no such thing as religion, would go away. Personally I'd rate global pverty somewhat above religion as an issue, but there's not a lot of point in discussing it, as the way to get a long winded discussion is to make sure people have something to disagree on. Presumably no one would say actually I think poverty is a good thing.


Indeed. Most of the problems of the world- greed, poverty, hunger, war and so on, are usually the by-products of human selfishness, which become manifest when certain types of individual that are pre-disposed to this condition, achieve power over others. In times past, this meant religious authorities or royalty, as they were the only positions of power back then, and royalty more often than not had senior religious positions, too. With the advent of industry and globalisation, that's shifted more to corporations and governments, which is whhy it holds shock value when such traits are still found in organised religions. if you eradicated all religions overnight, there'd still be selfishness and cruelty, and those in power would still choose to use an ideal as a principle to hide behind, to give their actions an excuse or some sort of legitimisation. Religion itself is not the problem, it's the abuse of power, either within organised religious bodies or any kind of administrative institution, and the negative traits of the human condition that give rise to this.
 
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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby Delilah » Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:02 pm

Greywoolfe wrote:Indeed. Most of the problems of the world- greed, poverty, hunger, war and so on, are usually the by-products of human selfishness, which become manifest when certain types of individual that are pre-disposed to this condition, achieve power over others. In times past, this meant religious authorities or royalty, as they were the only positions of power back then, and royalty more often than not had senior religious positions, too. With the advent of industry and globalisation, that's shifted more to corporations and governments, which is whhy it holds shock value when such traits are still found in organised religions. if you eradicated all religions overnight, there'd still be selfishness and cruelty, and those in power would still choose to use an ideal as a principle to hide behind, to give their actions an excuse or some sort of legitimisation. Religion itself is not the problem, it's the abuse of power, either within organised religious bodies or any kind of administrative institution, and the negative traits of the human condition that give rise to this.


Nothing but the truth there. And that is exactly why all organized religion is corrupt.
 
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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby Belle Leisha » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:12 pm

Exactly and in fact, all organizations with any kind of power, from the tiny to the global. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
But Eden is burning, either brace yourself for elimination
Or else your hearts must have the courage, of the changing of the guard


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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby Delilah » Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:19 am

I found this really interesting:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/28/religious-literacy-americ_n_741391.html
A new survey of Americans' knowledge of religion found that atheists, agnostics, Jews and Mormons outperformed Protestants and Roman Catholics in answering questions about major religions, while many respondents could not correctly give the most basic tenets of their own faiths.

Forty-five percent of Roman Catholics who participated in the study didn't know that, according to church teaching, the bread and wine used in Holy Communion is not just a symbol, but becomes the body and blood of Christ.

More than half of Protestants could not identify Martin Luther as the person who inspired the Protestant Reformation. And about four in 10 Jews did not know that Maimonides, one of the greatest rabbis and intellectuals in history, was Jewish.

The survey released Tuesday by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life aimed to test a broad range of religious knowledge, including understanding of the Bible, core teachings of different faiths and major figures in religious history. The U.S. is one of the most religious countries in the developed world, especially compared to largely secular Western Europe, but faith leaders and educators have long lamented that Americans still know relatively little about religion.

Respondents to the survey were asked 32 questions with a range of difficulty, including whether they could name the Islamic holy book and the first book of the Bible, or say what century the Mormon religion was founded. On average, participants in the survey answered correctly overall for half of the survey questions.

Atheists and agnostics scored highest, with an average of 21 correct answers, while Jews and Mormons followed with about 20 accurate responses. Protestants overall averaged 16 correct answers, while Catholics followed with a score of about 15.

Not surprisingly, those who said they attended worship at least once a week and considered religion important in their lives often performed better on the overall survey. However, level of education was the best predictor of religious knowledge. The top-performing groups on the survey still came out ahead even when controlling for how much schooling they had completed.

On questions about Christianity, Mormons scored the highest, with an average of about eight correct answers out of 12, followed by white evangelicals, with an average of just over seven correct answers. Jews, along with atheists and agnostics, knew the most about other faiths, such as Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and Judaism. Less than half of Americans know that the Dalai Lama is Buddhist, and less than four in 10 know that Vishnu and Shiva are part of Hinduism.

The study also found that many Americans don't understand constitutional restrictions on religion in public schools. While a majority know that public school teachers cannot lead classes in prayer, less than a quarter know that the U.S. Supreme Court has clearly stated that teachers can read from the Bible as an example of literature.

"Many Americans think the constitutional restrictions on religion in public schools are tighter than they really are," Pew researchers wrote.

The survey of 3,412 people, conducted between May and June of this year, had a margin of error of plus or minus 2.5 percentage points, while the margins of error for individual religious groups was higher.


You can take an online quiz:
http://features.pewforum.org/quiz/us-religious-knowledge/

Atheists outscored Protestants and Catholics on just about every question (which you can see when you compare your own answers at the end).
I missed #4 and #15 and got 87% correct.
 
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